About Rev. Tami: Rev. Tami Forte Logan is the Equity Missioner of Faith 4 Justice Asheville—“faith leaders in the Asheville region provoking justice for and with Black and Brown bodied people through faith and racial equity work.” Her methodology is rooted in her faith, is trauma-responsive, somatic, and utilizes popular education, history, and compassionate truth-telling. She has 20+ years' experience advocating for and facilitating racial and economic justice in schools, nonprofits, foundations, government systems, and churches across Western North Carolina and throughout the state of North Carolina. Tami believes that confronting and interrupting white supremacy culture in all systems while cultivating collective liberation is vital in attaining justice for all.
About Torre: Torre White is a kaleidoscope of roles and talents: a devoted wife, loving mother, prolific author, inspiring radio host, and passionate advocate for social and racial justice, mental health, and labor union rights. In her professional life, Torre has made strides in the fight for a more just society, and she continues to break boundaries as the inaugural RSAA Reparations Project Director.
Hit play to learn about Tami's experience and insights as a social justice advocate and leader working at the intersection of equity, diversity, and faith. This is one conversation you don't want to miss!
We'll see you same time, same place next month. Until then, peace.
About Rev. Tami: Rev. Tami Forte Logan is the Equity Missioner of Faith 4 Justice Asheville—“faith leaders in the Asheville region provoking justice for and with Black and Brown bodied people through faith and racial equity work.” Her methodology is rooted in her faith, is trauma-responsive, somatic, and utilizes popular education, history, and compassionate truth-telling. She has 20+ years' experience advocating for and facilitating racial and economic justice in schools, nonprofits, foundations, government systems, and churches across Western North Carolina and throughout the state of North Carolina. Tami believes that confronting and interrupting white supremacy culture in all systems while cultivating collective liberation is vital in attaining justice for all.
About Torre: Torre White is a kaleidoscope of roles and talents: a devoted wife, loving mother, prolific author, inspiring radio host, and passionate advocate for social and racial justice, mental health, and labor union rights. In her professional life, Torre has made strides in the fight for a more just society, and she continues to break boundaries as the inaugural RSAA Reparations Project Director.
Hit play to learn about Tami's experience and insights as a social justice advocate and leader working at the intersection of equity, diversity, and faith. This is one conversation you don't want to miss!
We'll see you same time, same place next month. Until then, peace.
Speaker 1:
We're profoundly, profoundly interconnected.
Speaker 2:
We don't always live that way.
Speaker 1:
We don't always acknowledge it, but if we're going to hear it we have to live it, experience it and create institutions that celebrate it.
Speaker 3:
Can we create a we where no one's on the outside of it?
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Uplift Real talk for real change with Zedek Social Justice Fund.
Speaker 4:
My name is Michael Hoban and I'm the Director of Communications at the Zedek Social Justice Fund, and I'm joined today by my co-host and executive director, miss Libby Kiles. Libby, how you feeling?
Speaker 1:
Feeling pretty good this morning.
Speaker 4:
All right, before we jump in and introduce our guest today, a quick reminder of who we are and why we're here. We're here to build authentic community relationships and help fuel social transformation in Asheville, north Carolina. We believe collective liberation is not only possible but probable, as we share, listen and learn together. We're here for the process. However, the views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. All right, so guess what? It is Pride Month.
Speaker 4:
Y'all, which means lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or LGBTQ plus communities are celebrating across the US. At the same time, the Human Rights Campaign has declared a state of emergency for LGBTQ plus Americans amidst an unprecedented wave of anti-LGBTQ legislation in 2023. With more than a third of US LGBT community living in the South, the reality is that community includes LGBTQ people as well. So today we're talking about the intersection of faith, love and inclusion in the context of the US South and social justice movements. We are thrilled to be joined today by Libby. Would you like to introduce our guest today?
Speaker 1:
I certainly would. So, first and foremost, we have Reverend Tammy Fortay Logan, who actually, I want you to tell about yourself.
Speaker 2:
Okay, happy Pride Month. This is Tammy Fortay Logan, reverend Tammy Fortay Logan, and today's hat is Equity. Missioner for Faith for Justice, asheville. We are a collaborative of faith communities across Asheville who believe in provoking justice for and with black and brown body folk in the Asheville region, and we do so through our faith and equity. So I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:
Thank you, we're so happy to have you here, and next we have the amazing Tori Garrison. You want to tell us about yourself?
Speaker 3:
Hello, I'm happy to be here, happy Pride Month, and so, yeah, asheville Native, the new project, director of RSAA, which is reparation stakeholder authority of Asheville, where it's just a place for black people in Asheville and Buncombe County to come together collectively and basically decide how we want to deliver reparations amongst one another. And so it's for us, by us, and just happy to be here today. Thank you.
Speaker 4:
Thank you both for joining us today. Libby, I'd like to kick it off with a question for you. So why does Zedek care about LGBTQ inclusion?
Speaker 1:
All the work that we do, whether it's in any of the three buckets that we focus on, which is racial justice, lgbtqia rights and stopping anti-Semitism at the root of the work that we do at Zedek is the honoring of humanity right. So we care, because everyone's humanity is important to us and it's important as a community that we recognize each individual's humanity.
Speaker 4:
All right. So what problems are we facing with that?
Speaker 1:
What problems are we facing? We're facing several problems with that. Oftentimes in our communities there and I want to be very explicit this morning and I'm speaking as a black native of Asheville there has been an issue in our community around homosexuality, around queerness, around transgender folk and whether or not they are accepted in our spaces, and so this conversation today is partly about how do we agree to disagree without doing harm and honoring the humanity of all of the people that are in our community.
Speaker 4:
Reverend Tammy, how does this topic fit into the work that you're doing?
Speaker 2:
Well, for me, equity is the gospel, so there is no question about whether you include or not include anyone. We're supposed to love all people, regardless of who they are, where they come from, how they believe, how they love, so they're one in the same in my perspective. So it's crucial that faith communities practice what we preach and that we embody unconditional love for all people and not segregate people or put people in categories. So to me, it's just the way it should be. We're all created in the image and likeness of God. We don't have the right to treating one differently.
Speaker 4:
We'll delve more into that stance in a moment, but, Tori, any thoughts on how this how LGBTQ inclusion factors into the work you're doing with RSAA?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, a lot of my mission is to make sure that the basics of what people understand as RSAA is for black people and understanding that black is just that. It doesn't mean who you are in your bedroom, doesn't mean who you choose to love. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that when I look at you, when other people look at you, at the end of the day you show up as black in these spaces first and foremost. And so making sure that people understand that and making sure that all people feel included, because it's impossible for us to fight for black people and leave out the LGBTQ plus community Beautiful.
Speaker 1:
And for Zedek, you know we want Asheville to be a place where everyone is thriving and everyone is just that it's everyone and so for us as an organization, it is crucial and I know that we're crucial that we are very clear about where we stand in terms of being inclusive and making sure that we recognize the humanity of all people. It's also one of our buckets, right, so we highlight this work. We talk specifically about this work because we believe that clarity is kindness and we want there to be clear understanding about who we are as an organization and what we support.
Speaker 4:
Awesome, All right people. So let's get started with do you believe there is a faith-based or an ethical duty to embrace and practice inclusion and acceptance? Feel free to jump in on that. Either one, Anyone.
Speaker 3:
So I would say for me, growing up in the church, growing up I'm a PK, have been around church all my life.
Speaker 3:
I mean I remember times where it was like wake up, I felt like I was in church more than I was at home. But I think at the root of it all is love and the understanding that, no matter who I encounter in church or other spaces of faith, the reality of it is that the reason that I believe and the reason that I know God as my God is because I'm not perfect, and so I know that in everything that I've done and everything that I will continue to do, that I'm still loved, and so because of that, it's impossible for me to not love others, and it's impossible for me to say that because you choose this or you choose that, the same love can't be given to you, and so for me, it's without thought that it should be, but the reality of it is, is it always? No, but to me it should be without thought, like how can you state that you believe in a God that loves all but then dictate that love for someone else?
Speaker 1:
It's kind of weird for me because, growing up in a family where I had a musician my uncle Edward rest in peace who had a love and a zest for God like no one I had ever seen. He loved being in the church, he loved playing the organ and as he was passing, it was one of the things that one of the conversations that he and I had often was about his sexuality and God's love and recognizing that God's love is ever present and God knew you from the womb. If we believe in what is written, it says that God knows us before we're even in the womb. So God knows all of your parts and God loves you unconditionally. Right, Growing up in the church and seeing my uncle play and everyone in the congregation knowing his sexuality Is that okay?
Speaker 1:
It seemed like it was okay as long as no one said the words right. So there was a secrecy in that. Everyone knew, but no one ever said, and it wasn't until someone came into the congregation who had not been there that things changed. And so for me and our community it's not like this is new, Like this is as long as we've been human, there's been homosexuality. As long as we've been human, there's been queerness we just didn't have a name for it. And as long as I've been a part of this earth, the love that is supposed to be freely given is the love that is supposed to be freely given.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, there definitely were names for it, but they weren't nice names.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
And it was kind of this don't ask, don't tell kind of policy widely known throughout black churches from my lived experience, but not talked about in open like behind the doors and conversation with one another and yet extracting the gifts from queer people as they came into congregations, but don't talk about your sexual identity.
Speaker 2:
So there was a contradiction in that and you know, as you were saying, that scripture I think it's David who says that God knew me before I was ever conceived in my mother's womb. So God knows us before we're planted in the womb and God loves us in that space. And so if God has created human beings differently, like who are we to determine who gets love and who doesn't get love? Because God did that, we didn't have the power to create anybody. So there is a contradiction that I've seen, certainly in the black church experience coming up, and I do think there's some shifts happening. But it's because people are now willing to talk about it and to name it and to call people in and to have loving conversations about. You're wrong If you mistreat an individual because of their sexual identity or whatever right. You are just wrong because that's not love Above all else. God is love. There's nowhere else you can put that Above everything.
Speaker 2:
And in fact Jesus talks about the greatest commandments. Right Superceased every other rule. Every other commandment, every other demand in Scripture is to love your Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. And secondly, to love your neighbor as yourself. And if we don't do that, there's no way we can claim that we love God. In fact, god says if we say we love God and we don't love our brothers, our sisters, our siblings, we are liars. So it's not. It doesn't get any planer than that. But we tend to selectively choose what we want to read, what we want to believe, what we want to understand about biblical teachings. But that is the basis of who we are as believers. If we claim to follow Jesus, the Christ, me and these courtesans right God is love the golden rule.
Speaker 4:
Absolutely the neighbor judge, lest not ye be judged.
Speaker 2:
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4:
So what is happening? That these core principles of these religious doctrines and teachings, these sacred texts are being dismissed on our purpose and in our pews?
Speaker 2:
Humans is what's happening. Sin is what's happening. Why supremacy? Culture is what's happening? Because we have made. Why supremacy our God?
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
Right. So it is really idolatry the way that we placate and we bow down to white culture in the society that dictates who is who and what's what, rather than listening to God. So I personally believe why supremacy is a power in principality, because of the way that it shifts, it moves, it shapeshifts and it always survives and thrives and reimagines itself or recreates itself in different contexts In the course of these past three years, for example, and looking from 2020 to 2023 and all this awakeness and awareness about systemic racism and white supremacy culture and you're watching how it is shape shifting. Like everybody is using DEI language now They've learned the language, but they're not embodying the love, and that's what's missing more than anything is the love. Like we do not love.
Speaker 3:
We say we love, but we don't, and I think also the understanding of in a space of knowing that we were created and still live by white supremacy, is that whole idea of fear. And it doesn't matter where we put that fear in, as long as we can make disruption in the fear. And so fear tends to overshadow love. Right, so I can be in a space with someone, love them for who they are. They've shown up for me time and time again. But the moment I hear about their sexuality, all of a sudden there's this fear piece, because I've been told it on TV, you know, I've been told it in churches, at school, all these different places where fear has become the placeholder. And I think a lot of times about when it was this big old thing about the bathrooms.
Speaker 1:
That was what HH, hb2, wait, we know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, so when it was this big old thing about the bathrooms and I was like let's take a second and just ask ourselves who is really going into people's stalls and asking them to show their parts Nobody, you know. It's just. It's like one of those things that I'm like we're putting all this fear and anger into this space, when it was something that we didn't think about before. It wasn't a thought for us, it wasn't.
Speaker 3:
When we talk about the families, like it was a big thing during adoption, you know of where can these children go, and can it be to a? Does it have to be a heterosexual family or can it be to a homosexual couple? And I'm like the reality of it is they're a child that has no one to love them right now. So why does it matter where they're going to receive that love if the whole purpose is love and giving them a safe place? And I think a lot of times we just allow politics and just the world to really push fear amongst anything else and we just run with that fear because fear is easy to digest.
Speaker 1:
Well, and it's like Reverend Tammy said is that whole shape-shifting of white supremacy in that, as we think about it, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:
Like I'm trying to get my words together precisely, they may not be perfect it's a distraction. So why supremacy shapeshifts as a distractor, and what happens when you distract it? You're not focused on the main thing and so people are able to move and manipulate and do things because we're all distracted. So now we're all nervous about what's happening in North Carolina and whether or not you know they're going to put blockages up so that homosexual couples can't adopt children, or whether or not they're going to make it more difficult for transgender folks to get health care. All these tactics are distractors, right? They're distracting us from the fact that there are other things that are at play politically, that people are maneuvering through, and so they start to attack your humanity, and they attack your humanity and they attack my humanity, because when they start to attack our humanity, we are going to mobilize, we are going to organize, and while we're doing these things, other things are happening. Just the thought that I have.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. I'm glad you named that, because that's what I was thinking as you were talking is that it distracts us from doing the real work, because we get focused, especially in faith institutions. You know, if everybody's focused on the gay piano player, for example, right, we're not paying attention to some elders in the church that may be abusing children or maybe assaulting women in that same congregation right, and we just pretend like it hasn't happened because we're so busy, focused on that. And we've categorized what we call sin. Right, we put it in compartments, but sin is sin to God. God doesn't know, respecter of persons, and God doesn't give us a spirit of fear but a power of love and a sound mind.
Speaker 2:
And so if we are operating in the power of love and a sound mind, then we have to look beyond what we see with our visual eyes. We have to read between the lines, but it's always a motive for why it's a pregnancy move, right. So you always got to look around it. And so when you hear all the buzz and the fuss about you know queerness, about CRT, about anything related to justice, it's a distraction right from what's really happening underneath, because in the meantime, they're pushing all types of legislation back to back to back and they're couching them within other pieces of legislation while we're all distracted. So it's really important that we pay attention right, and that we stay in this place of love and the sound mind, for sure.
Speaker 4:
So keeping us distracted so we stay what Divided.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely and against.
Speaker 3:
And yeah, because it turns into this. I mean, especially when we talk about let's look at the last three to four years, there has been an intentional division, pushed by media, against the LGBTQ community and blacks. That's right, and it's been very intentional for us to think that two aren't the same. You know like for us to think. At the end of the day, when you show up into a space, they see the color of your skin before they see anything. Absolutely, and I think that is the part that I try to get to people. That is the first thing they see, first and foremost. Right, and then everything else is unpacked in the process.
Speaker 3:
But if we're taking away the equality from just showing up in a space for being who you are, it makes it so easy for them to just go ahead and input different things that make you think that the fight has to be one or the other and not one and the other.
Speaker 3:
That's right. That's right, understanding that in my black self, my sexuality also matters. You know, like understanding that they're not separate from each other. They're not one that I can take out from one another. I can't take this black skin off and put on a different skin. I can't take my sexuality off and put on a different sexuality. You know, I love who I love am what I am, you know, granted that there's bleaching and things that could happen, but most of the time that's not something people are doing Right, that's temporary Right, and so I think media does a great job again of making us think that we're better against one another instead of us understanding how powerful we are together. That's right, and George Floyd was a perfect example of that, of how, when we're united, we are unstoppable.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, and with the social justice lens, even if you consider homosexuality or transgender people to be a matter of choice, we're talking about rights, right, human rights. That involves choice. So the question here is do we have to be, see, think, feel the same, to be on the same side right Within social justice movements? What I'm hearing is a resounding no, no.
Speaker 2:
No, people are just different. People have different lived experiences, different ways of believing, but we have to find the common ground. That's right too, and in this circle my guess is it's justice, right, and in a lot of spaces I'm in. You know we definitely don't agree on everything, but we believe in love and we believe in justice and so if we can align around that then we can get beyond the other differences. We're not intended to be exactly alike.
Speaker 2:
It's okay that we think differently, people are different, but the system works the same Absolutely and has, and the whole divide and conquer thing has been successful for hundreds of years, and so that's why it's still being used. And you think we would be critical thinkers? Right, we would see it coming more. Yeah, because this playbook has happened over and over again, but we fall right into it. You know, every group that suppress gets a little bit of freedom and become oppressors, right Of the next group and then that group does the same thing to the next group.
Speaker 2:
But we have to pause and look at the bigger picture and understand that really none of us are free and to all of us are free. So it doesn't benefit me to push you down or to dehumanize you or criminalize you, because that is going to reflect back on me in some way, because we're all created to connect to each other.
Speaker 4:
And there is progress right.
Speaker 2:
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 4:
So what efforts are being done within your communities to promote inclusion and acceptance?
Speaker 1:
Well, I just want to make one statement before we move straight into that progress. I think that it's important also when we're in these spaces, particularly spaces where we're talking about justice, is that there is an agreement that we operate in a way that we don't do harm to other people right and so and that there's recognition and I make it a slap on the hand for this, but I'm just going to say it because I'm bold and beautiful. Today you are bold and beautiful, black folks, specifically.
Speaker 1:
If we recognize that the Bible and Christianity has been a tool that for hundreds of years, kept us in the happy slave position where we were taught that God put us in this position for a reason, and then we also start to recognize that that same tool is now being used to create division with saying OK, so this is a sin, you shouldn't be homosexual, you shouldn't be queer, you shouldn't be this, you shouldn't be that. It is the same tool that was used to keep us in bondage and slavery for 400 plus years, absolutely. And so there needs to be, to be in my mind, a reckoning and understanding of coming together that these are one in the same right. It's that white supremacy reinventing itself and showing up in a different way using the same tired methods right, and so when we start to identify that these things are the same, then we can start to create agreements around how we don't harm each other. We understand that these systems are repetitive and we put our own practices into place that honor humanity and keeps us from harming one another.
Speaker 3:
And I would even push that to understand that a lot of times in these spaces, as we do this work, harm will be done, but it's intentional harm that we can't do Like. There will be some feelings, hurt there will be times where your ego is bruised, but that's real work right.
Speaker 3:
That's essentially. We are going through a grieving cycle because we're breaking and releasing who we were and what we've been taught and that could be from my grandparents, it could be from great, you know. Whatever it is that you've been taught to fear and now you have to go against that. So you go through this cycle. It's going to be times you're upset, etc. But any spaces I know. For all of us at this table the goal is not to cause intentional harm to anyone and I tell people all the time I will go toe to toe with anybody for their differences. One thing I will not debate is basic human rights.
Speaker 4:
To me.
Speaker 3:
That's not a debate. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on whether or not people should have basic human rights. I can disagree with everything, but when it comes to basic human rights, there's no place to go from there. It is what it is.
Speaker 1:
And as a learning organization, one of the things that we're doing here at Zedek is that we are trying to support people in unlearning Right, and so we're providing opportunities for organizations to come together, and our goal is not to change your mind about what your core beliefs are. Our goal is to create an environment where we are all learning together and where we are all able to create those agreements where we can say we will not purposely harm one another on this journey that we're going through.
Speaker 2:
And we will spend the time to repair the harm when it happens. Right, because it's gonna happen. We're human beings. We are going to hurt each other, whether intentional or not. But taking the time to stop, acknowledge that harm and do what needs to be done to heal, that's the missing piece. Yes, because it's not happening frequently enough, but we know what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, and we are running short on time.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, anybody want to hit on a little progress. I do.
Speaker 2:
I do because you know, as you were talking about, like what's happened in the past and how we've all grown up and some of the teachings that we've experienced in churches, specifically black church. I Know there's still some challenges there, right, but what gives me hope in the progress that I see is white Christians, white pastors, white lay leaders who are really digging in and doing the work of Expelling white supremacy from themselves and their own institutions, and so the work of faith for justice Is primarily working with white progressive institutions, because we all know about progressives right and liberals. They need to repent right, and so that's what's happening. I get to witness it Frequently, at least every month when we do our community of practice, but it gives me hope that I see leaders doing the hard work of examining, reexamining what they've been taught, what they've Understood, how they've interpreted scripture and how white supremacy has just been embedded in their DNA, right, and all of our DNA, because this is the air we all breathe, this is the water we drink.
Speaker 2:
It's called white supremacy in this culture, in American culture, and so seeing people divest of that and challenge, then go back and challenge their institutions, that's progress. I did not see that 10 years ago. I would never imagine that it could happen and it's happening. So now those are white, progressive, so-called liberals right, who who I see doing this work. There's still a lot of work to do in conservers of settings, still a lot of work and conversations we had in our black communities, black churches, particularly in Asheville I it's it's not it's not unusual anymore to hear from the pulpit a black pastor address. The way that we treat Queer communities right, the way we address racism so that is getting better, but we have to keep practicing it because there's always pushback Whenever people speak truth to power in that way. So it's, it's a lot of work that still has to be done.
Speaker 4:
Alright, unfortunately we have to wrap it up. You heard it here. We have work to do, people. Thank you all for showing this thought-provoking discussion, reverend Tammy Tori your soul, light, shine bright. You've left me feeling illuminated and invigorated. You're deeply appreciated. Okay, folks, you know how it goes. We hope to see you same time, same place next month. Until then, peace.
Speaker 1:
Peace.
Speaker 4:
This is America. This is the reason Kaverny was taking a knee.
Speaker 3:
Our broken. When I saw that video almost couldn't finish. It Appeals a power.
Speaker 1:
There's a virus in police departments across this country Cops are racism. Good cops know who these bad cops are.
Speaker 3:
You have every right to be angry, can you?
Speaker 2:
tell me why, every time I step outside, see my dog.
Speaker 3:
You have no right to perpetrate violence on the very communities that you are standing up for. A lot of people, I've been using my father's words that all men are created. The only pathway to do this is through nonviolent beings.
Speaker 2:
That it ain't no gun that make that can kill myself. We will bring you justice, I promise. If we go, be all right, start making some changes.
Speaker 1:
This is the reparations roundup and the fight the power podcast on wres.