Let's Talk: The Nitty-Gritty of Social Transformation

Can celebrating failures can be just as powerful as cheering for our successes? Is collaboration necessary for collective liberation? What pressures do BIPOC leaders face in this work? How do we heal together and what roadblocks slow our progress?

In this episode, Giannina Callejas and Shuvonda Harper of the Center for Participatory Change (CPC) share their thoughts and experiences from the social justice frontlines as we get real about the grit it takes to dismantle white supremacy culture and the vital role of safe, trusting relationships in sparking growth. We're not holding back on the tough stuff - from acknowledging failure to navigating differences to healing together.

About Giannina: Born in Bogota, Colombia and raised in Queens, NYC, Giannina Callejas (She/Her/Hers) is a millennial cisgender woman, first-generation college graduate, and first-generation immigrant who believes that the answer to all questions is LOVE. Her vision is to pilot a national movement that will lead us not into oppression but toward equality for all of mankind. Her dream is to live a life of bliss that is not contested by despair or defied by misery. Her prophecy is to discover herself by providing service to the goodness of the world.

About Shuvonda: Shuvonda Harper (She/Her/Hers) is an Asheville native, mother of two, and vocal advocate for the greater good. Growing up in the historically African-American Southside neighborhood, Shuvonda developed a deep love for her community, which ignited her activism. Shuvonda serves as a board member of the Residents’ Council of Asheville Housing Authority and is the Office Assistant at the Arthur R. Edington Center.

This episode is a treasure trove of insights that are sure to inspire understanding and action. Don't wait; hit play! 

We'll see you same time, same place next month. Until then, peace.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

We're profoundly, profoundly interconnected. We don't always live that way. We don't always acknowledge it.

Speaker 2: 0:06

But if we're going to heal, we have to live it, experience it and create institutions that celebrate it Can we create a we where no one's on the outside of it.

Speaker 3: 0:17

Welcome to the Uplift with Zedek Real Talk for.

Speaker 1: 0:20

Real Change. Before we jump in, a quick reminder of why we're here and what we hope to achieve.

Speaker 2: 0:26

We're here to build authentic community relationships and help fuel social transformation in Asheville, north Carolina. We believe collective liberation is not only possible but probable, as we share, listen and learn together. We're here for the process. However, the views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. Hello, hello, we are happy you are here. Today is another good day for a great conversation and we will not disappoint. My name is Michael Hoban, I'm the director of communications at Zedek and I'm joined by Libby Kiles, our executive director. Libby, how are you feeling? I am blessed, as always. How are you feeling?

Speaker 1: 1:08

I'm doing well.

Speaker 2: 1:12

I'm fortunate to be joined by Giannina Caez from the Center for Participatory Change, aka CPC. Yiji, how are you doing?

Speaker 3: 1:17

I'm doing great, my name is Giannina Cajez, I'm one of the co-executive directors for the Center for Participatory Change, and I am here with my extraordinary colleague, shavonda Harper.

Speaker 4: 1:34

Hi, I'm Shavonda here, outreach coordinator and office manager for Center for Participatory Change, and I'm glad to be here. It's a mouthful, let's just say it CPC, cpc.

Speaker 1: 1:45

CPC. That's it too.

Speaker 2: 1:48

I'm going to share a little bit about the work that you do.

Speaker 4: 1:50

CPC is an organization that is out to ignite collective power, transform systems of oppression and heal in community, and that's something that we've been doing for over 20 years, through some rough times, through a lot of the movements. Cpc has been out in community to support community in all those ways in igniting, transforming and healing.

Speaker 3: 2:18

Thank, you, shavonda, for sharing, Because Asheville is predominantly white and I think the percentage has gone up to 87% white right. So our black indigenous POC community is just slowly dwindling and so creating spaces where we can break bread together, where we can have conversations because if you have community and people you can lean on, who can support you, who can listen to you, you'd be more likely to stay or aim to provide and have those spaces where we can create art, where we can have conversations, where we can eat together. There's no hidden agenda. Sometimes we'll have agenda and bring people and sometimes we'll just be in space together. Visit our website, cpcwncorg If you're interested in finding out when the upcoming events are. We have Black Love Intercom, but we're looking to increase and have some more programming in 2024. So definitely check us out.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Yes, All right, let's touch base for a minute. How are your communities doing?

Speaker 4: 3:16

I know my community is still grieving from years ago. You know it's just layers and layers of grief and then coming out of the pandemic COVID-19, that really kind of put a damper on things. It kind of made grieving look a little different. I know in black community we embrace each other and we like to hug and we haven't been able to embrace each other in a way that we normally would and so the community is still hurting just working on how can we work on that?

Speaker 1: 3:50

Thank you for mentioning that. I think it's really important because we often hear people talk about what's happening coming out of the pandemic and there really isn't a whole lot of conversation about what has happened during this pandemic and how it has shifted, how we're able to relate to one another in community because we are a relational people. I'm happy that you brought that up, because I think that's something that we should talk about more and really be clear about those differences. So what do you think CPC might be able to do to highlight how we might be able to repair? What are some things you feel like we might be able to do, not just with the adult, but also with our kids, kids. Yeah, I have a start. Thanks, guys, bringing some repair and some relief into our communities.

Speaker 3: 4:33

You know we didn't recognize the impact that that caused. I remember I went to my first conference after the pandemic. That had thousands of people. I'm a very like, extroverted individual but I was getting depleted very, very quickly after the pandemic and I think what happens is that we have lacked acknowledging the impact that COVID has caused in our people. You know, even after the pandemic, we're still having to constantly be looking at violence, whether it's in our own personal lives, in our communities or across the water.

Speaker 3: 5:07

We get so worked up on we have to do the work. We have to do the work that we need to. We forget that we are human too. I can't take naps and I'm like, oh, I never realized that the reason I can't take naps is a trauma response from my ancestors and my family, because taking naps is considered being lazy, not considered taking care of yourself. It's considered, you know, being ingrateful. I'm so grateful of everything I've been able to accomplish that I'm granting myself, you know, this experience of just being. We have to shift something, because what we notice is that our elders and our communities are dying at a much rapid rate than our counterparts. So recognizing you know what happens to grief when we don't properly let that cycle run through and what it does to our bodies, our mind, our soul, we're talking about this on the individual level and it's compounded on the organizational level.

Speaker 2: 6:00

Yes, Both CPC and Zedek share the mission and vision of community healing and collective liberation. Let's talk a little bit about how collaboration fits into this. Is collaboration a necessity to realizing our vision of collective liberation?

Speaker 3: 6:17

When you ask that question, the first thing that comes up is like what have we done to acknowledge ourselves first, I can't be in right relationship, even in like a romantic relationship or even like a friendship relationship, if I'm not able to show up in my best possible self, and those that I'm in relationship with must understand that my 100% looks different every single day. But we think that we must show up, desensitize. We desensitize our own emotions and our experiences to be able to show up for this collaboration or this community event or, you know, whatever the case.

Speaker 3: 6:50

Yes, the three C's collaboration, cooperation and coordination is just finding the right fit, the right people that can work through it, because this work is not for the week and when we talk about collective liberation, I think what's interesting is that we all think that it's the same road, we're all taking the same street, we're walking the same sidewalk, and the reality is that we're not. You know, libby is walking on her path. I'm walking on my own path. I trust Libby in the pack that she's walking, that she is going to do the work to get us to the vision of collective liberation and I want her, right through our relationship, to trust that in my block, you know, in my street I'm walking towards the same direction as she is. That does not mean that we're against each other. You know and I think it's a conversation that we must have that when we think we're not walking on the same street, you are against me, no fool we walking in the same we going to the same spot.

Speaker 3: 7:46

I'm going to meet you there, but I'm taking a different road. I think we don't ever acknowledge that collective liberation. You know it's a path towards, but there's not just a path. Hundreds and thousands, and then what could be liberating to me might not be liberating to somebody else. So when we define collective liberation, we're talking about humanity, we're talking about being in a place that fulfills and completely uplifts everybody's perspective, everybody's lives, the right to be human I really love the definition from people and planet. That, or collective liberation, means recognizing that all of our struggles are intimately connected and that we must work together to create the kind of world we know is possible. We believe that every person is worthy of dignity, respect and that within systems of oppression, everyone suffers.

Speaker 1: 8:37

And the reality is, when you talk about collective liberation, there is not one right way, it's a both and. So, yes, there has to be this respect that every person as an individual, every organization, has a path. And when we recognize that, yeah, this group is going this way and this group is going that way, well, not just that they're on their path, but how can we support them on that path? And where do we intersect? And in those places of intersection, how do we coordinate, cooperate and collaborate right and figuring out where you are relationally, because ultimately, if we don't, there's a lot of unintentional harm that happens when we are not aware enough, and I mean aware.

Speaker 1: 9:23

We have these conversations sometimes and we think we're in the no, but we're not, and so part of what needs to happen for us as community is more of a hyper awareness of what's really going on and having no talk conversations, right. So there are conversations that need to be had that might be able to mitigate all the fractures in relationships that we have in our community. I'm speaking of Asheville, because that's where we are Right and that's black and brown folks. We all know that there's a little hush moments, right, there are things that we all know about, but we don't ever have those conversations about them. What does that do to help us move toward collective liberation? And a lot of that is because this whole thing that we've been talking about earlier today about grief, about taking care of ourselves, about having the opportunity to just be we got to work on healing ourselves as individuals and showing up in our organization as whole people and then seeing what that carries out to our communities. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 10:27

Yeah, we also have to recognize how we use the word healing. You know, I think we've kind of taken over this word of like healing, liberation, and like healing and community, and I think this isn't a conversation we've ever had. When we talk about healing, we're talking about something that's broken and none of us are broken and we recognize that through systematic racism, through history, right, we've been systematically targeted and that target has caused harm in our own people of color community. You know we're constantly expecting, like oh, black people needs to end racism. No, that's not true, right. How do white people participate and educate themselves to like the complicitness of systematic racism?

Speaker 1: 11:13

And we also have to stop putting labor undue labor on the people who are being oppressed, Right? So it's not my job to enraise them. No, it's white America's job to be honest about what exists, why it exists and what needs to be done so it does not exist, Right? So it is everything you said is 100% correct and thinking through how do we move forward.

Speaker 3: 11:40

I came to the United States when I was five, so my entire you know educational career has been here and I've been lied to my entire life. Right now our kids are doing whatever talking about Christopher Columbus, talking about he sailed and found us, you know, learning this fake history. And so how do we ensure that our youth aren't being lied to and deceived? And we're seeing how the government sees how that's a threat for our younger generation to understand the true history of the United States? I mean the gruesome ugliness and also the beauty of it, the you know the revolution, because not only is it showing us what was really difficult, right, but also showing us how today we are still survivors and we are still here and regardless of how you attack us, we will still come up on top.

Speaker 4: 12:33

Yeah, and it just shows the resiliency of the community and with my family it's been like a no thanks given and we talk about it at the dinner table. Yeah, we're having thanks given, but there was no thanks that was given, you know. And so having those hard conversations with our children at the dinner table and explaining to them why, I remember I went to a dinner at my family, so my family is all immigrants.

Speaker 3: 13:07

I was born in Colombia and I started saying like, oh yeah, you all know we are celebrating genocide. And they're like here goes Janina once again. And I'm like, oh, we're going to talk about it, Because at least for one minute, I want to sustain this silence to remember what happened and what we are celebrating, quote on quote and giving thanks to so I keep hearing talk about it, and it's easy to talk about the isms or something that feels huge and removed, but what about when we have something between us as people and we don't talk about it.

Speaker 3: 13:37

You know, I'm really glad you brought that back because it was something like you had just said and I was like right, having difficult conversations, but I don't think we've been equipped to know how to have difficult conversations. But I mean by that is that we haven't been taught how to listen, to fully understand. We haven't understood how to properly consent and provide and receive feedback. We haven't been taught how to have open ended conversations and ask questions and lead from a place of curiosity. Instead, we've been taught let me come at you.

Speaker 3: 14:12

You know we talk about calling out versus calling in, and it's so easy for us to be like call in, you know, yes, when you are not in those relationships, and even then is a relationship that's growing and evolving, right? So I must understand where am I in the relationship? Right, because we just started this conversation talking about the amount of violence and grieving and death that we're constantly experiencing, right? So when and where is a constant conversation? And so when it's not somebody who's in your inner circle, it's kind of that that constant like well, who are you? You don't know me, you don't know what happened to me, you don't know what I'm going through. I showed up the best way I could and if you were in my circle of influence, knowing what I was navigating, you'd understand.

Speaker 2: 14:57

As a funder, what is our role and responsibility, if any, and kind of ushering in those spaces where that is possible, where real healing and connection is possible?

Speaker 3: 15:08

I think one. We need to acknowledge it. You know, like, like being a funder versus being a nonprofit. You know, nonprofits were not created for us or by us. We're still having to navigate a system that is completely full of white supremacy culture, regardless of the people who are leading it or not. Same with philanthropy right, philanthropy was created almost to like. Right, they're wrongs. Quote unquote Right. What funders can do is that they can be human, they can get off the high horse, literally and figuratively. Right, and join us in this conversation. Come to the events, come experience what we talk about. And the reality is that philanthropy scrutinizes BIPOC leaders constantly. We are expected to perform at the utmost perfection, and perfection with its reflection to our proximity to white supremacy and whiteness, but to just being able to remove and learn more about what's happening and what the goal is that we're working on.

Speaker 2: 16:07

But even in that community level, right, I understand entirely the humanized, the funder role, like right step down, be in this with us. And how does that look for grantee to grantee or organization to organization, individual to individual? It's easy to talk up. This is what you need to do, this is the power dynamic, but when that power dynamic is equal or shared, it's not easy to get it Right. Yeah, and yet still, it seems like what I'm hearing is that there's so much healing that's needed before we even get to those three C's we talked about.

Speaker 4: 16:41

Yeah, and especially here in Asheville, the harms that's been done to folk when you dangle peanuts and carrots in front of folk and everybody's out to get it. Like, everybody wants to eat and if we can all get equal portions would be great, but somebody's going to get a little bit more on their plate than others. Oftentimes the ones that get the huge piece of the pie or their plate is running over. Sometimes you don't really see the work or it just takes a lot in the healing part building that trust, getting everybody on the same page or what have you. It's a lot.

Speaker 3: 17:23

I will say that I really appreciate how Zedek has challenged a philanthropic realm. I applaud Zedek. Zedek provided a CPC, a five year grant, and how awesome is it for us not to constantly be like, all right, here's another year, I have to reapply, get my, you know but the opportunity to one share back and reflect what's happening. You know and it doesn't mean that we're perfection, right, Like, how do we allow for failure to be at the, at the table without the scrutiny of failure but the celebration of failure? I was running a executive director roundtable discussion and I asked everybody who was at that table how do you celebrate failure and recognize success? And on purpose, I talk about celebrating failure because, oh man, you know, for a year or so I felt like I failed.

Speaker 3: 18:13

Dang, this has been difficult. Being a BIPOC leader in Asheville has been hard. I've shared, you know, some sentiments that some of my colleagues also have shared with me. It's hard because we are under the eye. We are under like what are they doing? Are they doing what they said they're supposed to be doing? Did they do it or not? Instead of being like what's happening? Oh, you failed, yes, but we learned from it. This is how we're going to shift it, and sometimes we're not our best human selves, and that's real too. But if you truly believe in humanity, then you truly believe I could also replenish and say I'm sorry because I did mess up. Or you could celebrate me when success happens, but you could also talk to me when failure happens, you know, and be like how did you learn from that? Not from a deficit perspective, but from one of like, uplifting and inspiring.

Speaker 1: 19:08

I think it's also important to highlight that, when we talk about partnerships and relationships, that there's this thing called reciprocity, and so that we are being really clear that when we are in right relationship with each other, reciprocity it's a thing, it's a give and the take.

Speaker 1: 19:29

It is making sure that when we are having these conversations, that there is a mutual understanding, not just from the funder side, but also from the organizational side. Zedek does work really hard in terms of this idea of trust, and I say this idea because trust-based philanthropy is different depending upon which organization you talk to. And so making sure in fact let me just go ahead and say it, that's what we're embarking on in 2024, is really making sure that we are being clear in our communication with all of our grantee partners about what our mission, our vision and where we connect, and not just us saying, oh, this is what we're doing, but us having conversations that says what do you see from Zedek, what do you need from Zedek? But really making sure that we're building relationships together and that we understand the boundaries of our relationships, so that we don't unintentionally hurt people, we don't unintentionally harm organizations and there's clarity.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Yeah, and that goes both ways right. It's not what do you need from us, but it's like hey, we're people on the side of this too. We are impacted leaders doing this work also. We're just fortunate enough to be on the funder side, so there's a little bit more privilege and power in that respect, but we are people doing this too, and on the same fight and plight, and so what are the expectations we can have of you? What does trust look like being received? Do you even want us at your events? You know these questions that are really carving out what it looks like to be in. I think the term is right relationship, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:11

And what does it mean when you're a black female leading a philanthropic organization? What does it mean when you're, whatever identity, leading this organization? How do we make sure that there is understanding? That word is so important understanding, understanding.

Speaker 2: 21:31

I heard a lot about leaning into these hard conversations, but the truth is, the more we have them, the less difficult they become. Yeah because that's where that trust comes right yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:40

The more we build the skills to have them, the better we will be at continuing to have and engage in those conversations.

Speaker 1: 21:48

And feedback is critical. It is critical to growth, right. It is critical to everything that we do, whether we are on the funder side or the organizational side receiving funding. If we can't have those critical conversation and get that feedback, how do you grow?

Speaker 4: 22:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:10

And these are the human conversations we need to be having in our workplaces, at our dinner tables, right, right, alongside with all the isms and the systems. So that's a full awareness that I think is needed for an actualized humanity.

Speaker 3: 22:23

Yeah, there's one more thing that's coming up for me, and one of the things that's coming up for me is like also giving each other the grace to get there and learn. And sometimes we don't give ourselves that grace or we don't give others that grace and we immediately just you know that cancel culture and so challenging, you know, cancel culture is not good for any of our people, it's not good for healing, it's not good for collective liberation, it doesn't, it doesn't fit into where we're going. And it was just one of the things that kept coming up Like, how do we have a both and right, not expect, you know, you got to do your own legwork and learn and you know, and you also need to put yourself in relationships so you're able to learn more about where you're needed and where you could be of support and how you could be in right relationships to have those conversations.

Speaker 1: 23:13

That's a very good point. I really like that.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Yeah, balancing grace and accountability, that's a lifetime of work right there.

Speaker 4: 23:21

That is but to be that balance. Yeah, that's what we got to do.

Speaker 1: 23:26

And y'all Accountability is not a bad thing. It is not. It is not a bad thing. It's how you use accountability that can be bad. That's where the struggle comes in, where you're using things that gotchas right. Failure is a part of success, mm-hmm, yep, if you don't recognize your failures, you don't figure out the things that went wrong. Again, it's all about that growth mentality. How do you grow from a place where you don't even recognize what went wrong?

Speaker 3: 23:55

And tell me when you recognize what went well Again, no, Well, I think we do that very often either.

Speaker 4: 24:00

Yeah, we gotta celebrate the good and the bad.

Speaker 3: 24:02

And there's no such thing as bad unless, like violence, you know death right, but like conversations and healing and discussions and difficult conversations are not bad, even if they go wrong, even if maybe goes like what skills or what's missing in this recipe so that we can get the cake to fluff.

Speaker 1: 24:22

Yeah, again, that's a part of the language, right, we get taught that things are good or bad, it's right or it's wrong, and it does not have to be that way.

Speaker 4: 24:33

Challenge the binary yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:35

Because, as we humanize, that means it's gonna get complicated real quick. Right the shades and facets.

Speaker 3: 24:41

Yeah, of course I remember I would go. I went to college and one of the things my professor once told me, she looked back I was reading this book, like about BDSM, and I'm just like I just don't, I'm like no, I don't agree, like no. And she looks at me and she goes. You know what, janina? You thinking very black and white, and I was like something so simple, so simple. I was like it took me back and I was like there is thousands of colors and hues of gray and I'm over here like nope. And so when she challenged that perspective, I immediately was like let me read this book, let me understand. And I'm like, oh my God, this is such a beautiful experience that people get to define pleasure and risk and pain and, whatever the case, how they want to define it.

Speaker 2: 25:29

And so just what's beautiful there, though, is you said she challenged you Because you needed that in order to even grow, and so that's the challenge that we're giving out. The call to action it's to challenge each other. It can only happen in safe and trusting relationships, and we have to get there, but there is beauty in that.

Speaker 3: 25:48

How can we challenge growth and challenge those conversations and recognize those moments?

Speaker 2: 25:55

While still holding each other safely, humanely.

Speaker 3: 25:58

Yeah, I think at CPC we're actually working on some new programs that are gonna be coming up. We have a new partnership working closely with some of our youth here in Asheville. Our youth are also experienced in systematic racism. I talked about 87% white. That means our children are also going to schools that are predominantly white, and so what does that mean for them? So CPC is entering into the school to make sure that our kids know that we're there and that our kids are there to go to school to learn, not to become racial equity consultants, and that's what our kids are having to be. So CPC is doing some great collaboration work after realizing some harm that was caused by the education system.

Speaker 3: 26:40

This year we are still gonna be doing monthly Black love events. We're still gonna be doing intercambios. So if you're interested in being a part of this six-week cohort right of into-right relationships, you know having the conversations it's gonna be debuting in April, in April. So keep a lookout so that you can register. And one of the things CPC has been doing for its entire lifetime is just bringing people together, and I think we're gonna be focusing on bringing people together and having those conversations. So one of our goals will also be to bring together those BIPOC leaders.

Speaker 3: 27:17

I want Libby to be able to show up for me when I'm like I am struggling with this funder I got you, or vice versa, for Libby to be like I'm struggling with this idea. I think Janina would be a great person for me to reach out and see if I can get some support. I've done that a lot with Michael. Thank you, michael, for showing up, and I think that's the way to do it right. We were able to build a relationship and now we're able to be in those spaces where, like I know what you're good at, I need help.

Speaker 3: 27:44

I'm not good at those things, or vice versa. So just check us out. We're really excited for some things to come. Yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to send us an email at info at CPCWNCorg or check out our website and thank you for having us here and thank you, zedek, for doing some amazing work Truly and honestly. Thank you, zedek, for being humans and even you know, being able to see us completely, and I hope that CPC can organically also fulfill those expectations of how CPC shows up while we do this work.

Speaker 2: 28:16

Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 28:18

I do want to mention an event that's coming up in community on December 9th at Hunt Hill, which is the new spot, for my daddy taught me that there will be a gun buy back on that day from one to three. It is a community event. There will be food trucks, there will be a vigil with speakers and we hope that everyone can come out and get some valuable information, have some time to connect this community and bring the kids, because there will be things for them to do as well.

Speaker 2: 28:47

Awesome. Gigi and Shavanna. Thank you so much for sharing yourselves today. Beautiful humans, thank you for tuning in and leaning in. You can find us same time, same place next month. Until then, peace, peace.

Speaker 3: 28:59

Happy holidays.