The UPLift with Tzedek: Real Talk for Real Change
Welcome to The UPlift - Real Talk for Real Change! We're here to build authentic community relationships and help fuel social transformation in Asheville, NC, believing collective liberation is not only possible but probable as we share, listen, and learn together.
The Tzedek Social Justice Fund is a social justice philanthropy fund that redistributes money, resources, and power to support systems change and community healing in Asheville, North Carolina. Through adaptive, trust-based philanthropy, we resist oppressive systems and work to transform our collective home into a place where everyone flourishes. We fund mission-aligned work centering LGBTQ Justice, Racial Justice, and/or Dismantling Antisemitism; this means we give money to organizations and individuals invested in creating a more fair, equitable, and flourishing society.
We dream of a thriving Asheville where everyone's needs are abundantly met - where everyone is safe, respected, and celebrated. We believe that a community rooted in joy and love is possible - that is, if we can connect and build our shared vision on the value that liberation is for all.
Sound good to you? We hope so!
Let's be real. Let's go deep. Let's get liberated.
The UPLift with Tzedek: Real Talk for Real Change
Live from the Overflow: A Liberation Journey
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What if the real power of community impact lies in the little, everyday connections—those ripple effects we can’t always see?
This month, two brilliant minds get candid in reimagining community transformation, starting with a radical proposition: choose yourself first. The challenge? If we really seek to make a lasting impact in our backyards, we must begin from within before it ever gets to the boardroom or the block.
About Amieris:
Dr. Amieris Lavender, affectionately known as Dr. L, is a policy scholar, writer, and relentless community-builder rooted on the power of connection. She is the founder and managing partner of LoveJoyLiberation Community Relations Firm, where their mission is to spread love with joy for liberation. Her passion sits at the intersection of joy, liberation, and collective healing; through her firm, she works to ensure social evolution isn’t just possible but inevitable by bringing people together in meaningful ways, both big and small. Dr. L practices yoga, is a gardener and writer, and loves hosting parties for her friends.
About Niconda:
Asheville native Niconda Garcia is a lifelong advocate for equity who’s spent more than 25 years shaping change in healthcare, criminal justice, philanthropy, and grassroots organizing throughout Asheville. A self-identified barrier-breaker and champion for everyday leaders, Niconda’s approach is grounded in making sure everyone—not just the usual suspects—gets a seat at the table (and knows they belong there). As the owner of the consulting firm Change the Rubric, Niconda partners with individuals, educators, funders, and organizations to drive social transformation. Her work centers on individual purpose and self-concept as catalysts for growth, supporting people and institutions in becoming their best selves while advancing social change. Niconda is a mother, actor, roller-skater, consultant, and lifelong advocate for social justice.
Together, these powerhouses get honest about burnout, abundance mindsets, and what it means to walk in liberation instead of waiting for permission. If you’re ready for straight-up practical wisdom on how healing, visibility, and radical self-care build stronger selves and communities, this episode’s for you.
🎧 Ready to rethink how you approach community impact? Listen now and get curious about what becomes possible when you prioritize self-liberation.
We'll see you same time, same place next month. Until then, peace.
Introductions
Speaker 1We're profoundly, profoundly interconnected. We don't always live that way, we don't always acknowledge it, but if we're going to heal, we have to live it, experience it and create institutions that celebrate it. Can we create a we where no one's on the outside of it? Welcome to the Uplift with Zedek Real talk for real change. Before we jump in, a quick reminder of why we're here and what we hope to achieve we're here to build authentic community relationships and help fuel social transformation in Asheville, north Carolina. We believe collective liberation is not only possible but probable, as we share, listen and learn together. We're here for the process. However, the views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent.
Speaker 2Welcome to the Uplift. I'm so excited you're here with us today because our guests are two incredible changemakers in the Asheville region. They are incredible women who are dedicating their lives to supporting and impacting their direct community here, and we're going to be talking a little bit about their work. Nakonda Garcia holds a degree in business administration, is Lean Six Sigma certified and is a commissioned notary public. Yes, with more than 25 years of experience across the healthcare, criminal justice, philanthropy and nonprofit sectors. A native of Asheville, she is deeply committed to dismantling systemic inequities and contributing positively to her community. She does that as the owner of the consulting firm Change the Rubric. Nakonda partners with individuals, educators, funders and organizations to drive social transformation. Her work centers on individual purpose and self-concept as catalysts for growth, supporting people and institutions in becoming their best selves while advancing social change. Nakonda is a mother, an actor, a roller skater, consultant and lifelong advocate for social justice.
What Community Impact Means to You
Speaker 2Our other esteemed guest, dr Amiris Lavender, affectionately known as Dr L, holds a PhD in education policy yes, yes, doctor From Michigan State University. There she studied urban education, school reform and specialized in implementation and culture. She's the founder and managing partner of LoveJoy Liberation Community Relations Firm, where their mission is to spread love with joy for liberation. Where their mission is to spread love with joy for liberation Collectively, they envision a world where joy is abundant, liberation is true wealth and love is the foundation of thriving communities, where preventable harms never happen and healing is inevitable. Dr L knows the pivotal power that communities of all kinds have made in her life and believes passionately that our relationship to our human connections hold transformative power and inspiration. Dr L practices yoga, is a gardener, writer and loves to host parties. Well, amiris Nakonda, thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having us. Really, I want to kick it off by just talking about what it means to you to make an impact in your community. Great question, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3You just want to look at me first, right?
Speaker 2Hey.
Speaker 3Okay, I'll start. For me, it can look many different ways and being from this community and doing a lot of leadership development work and training other leaders to step into their leadership, what I realized is it can be as small as the one impact that you have with each individual person every single day and that's how I walk. So you never know what your impact is going to be and you never know where that person is going to take what they gathered from your interaction to impact the world either. So if you just make that your natural cadence, your impact naturally ripples. Now, from an organizational standpoint, you have a mission, you have to quantify, you have to make sure that you are achieving the mission. It's different. I am the firm believer that we are always walking in a duality of our individual person as a being just living into who we are, in our spirit or however we define ourselves, and the separate duality of working within an organization or within a job or in a community Right.
Defining Community
Speaker 2Which can be a little more confining right. You have this like very set sort of standard in those cases. A lot of the time it gets tricky when you're doing community work and that is the mission right. But I think that's both really exciting because it's such a low barrier to entry, you can easily impact other people. But it's also a little scary because you're impacting people all the time in your direct sphere. So I feel like that can be both daunting and also really exciting, I agree.
Speaker 4I think that community impact first starts with how you define your community. So for me it starts. Most proximate to me it's like the people in my household, my neighborhood, my chosen family, who you know, whether we've met in undergrad or grad school we've decided that we want to do life together in whatever way. Being a person who has lived in different regions, what community means has changed. For me, it's both the people that you can make relationship with that are proximate to you, whether that's Asheville, detroit, where I'm from, or it's like, oh, these are my community, that they've all gone and pursued their own goals and dreams, and so it means to hold them in community is a little bit different and in that sense I think we're always impacting one another. You know, I took a class of financial class and I started talking to my friends about it and then I learned their relationships with money. That class had a community level impact beyond what they could ever quantify just by telling a person with a mouth and some friends a fact, and we share it, and that is community level impact. We can never quantify.
Speaker 4I recently participated in a large event where we brought in a speaker that talked about joy. Ross Gay came in and talked about joy. And then I was out at a trivia night and a woman who wasn't there, who heard about the event, started telling me about it, and I think that those sort of opportunities to spread thoughts and ideas are the level of community impact that I speak about the most, because I think they're underrated. How you show up for the people around you, I think, is the most important. It's those small acts, like you're saying, nakonda, and then it builds into how we show up in community.
Speaker 4But for me it's important I found in doing this community work that you mentioned that I keep close to me, at least that my community starts with people who, like, actually know and love me, and I've agreed to love them back wherever they are. And then I have a responsibility in the places I live to participate in the issues that impact that community. So I get involved. And then I live in a nation and then I live in a world, so I'm constantly building up from there, but I can't do everything, so there's a give and take. From there I can manage whatever impact I'm trying to define.
Speaker 2It's a really great description of what you were talking about earlier in the con about rippling, and I think when we think about community impact, people maybe picture a lot of the time like I signed up with this group who does volunteering and we went and we, you know, cleaned the river. In this we, we went and tried to clean up the banks of the French broad or something, or we did this which is great, like that is impacting service project service project.
Speaker 2But I think that we really forget about the opportunity that we have when we've learned something that's really blown our mind, that has really impacted us in a way where we just can't stop thinking about that, and then when we share that throughout the community, how impactful that can be, how mind shifting that can be and how that can be really important.
Speaker 3I agree 100% with everything that has been said. Also just want to add sometimes our impact can be felt most by people that know us the least, but you never know the impact of small things.
Speaker 2I think also it kind of helps us paint a little bit of a picture of what it means to be a little bit of a consultant in the region. Both of you are consultants. I would love if you could tell us what does your work look like?
Speaker 4Well, I like to replace a word no one knows by using more words that no one knows. I'm like, I don't love consultants.
Speaker 2I went like freelance professional right, oh yeah, ooh, yeah, super big.
Speaker 4You know? I mean I have a whole rant that I will save for this particular topic about freelancers.
Speaker 4I'm gonna stay focused, but I think, in general, what I'm trying to think about in terms of community organizing, like we'll probably get into this, but I've had a lot of jobs around this and bringing people together and it's a passion and I've come to a place of like it's not about what you're good at doing alone, what people will ask you to do, but what is your gift and what do you want to do and offer. I love facilitating meetings. I like bringing people together. I want them to be efficient. I want us to have fun. I think they should be playful places, so I do meeting facilitation. I also love to guide groups in making decisions so I can do some strategic planning, but I want it to be fun. So, like, let's gamify strategic planning, let's think creatively. I always bring joy and play into what I'm doing because as an educator, I know that youth and adults learn best through play. I know that we're more creative when we feel easeful, so I like to bring that into whatever I'm doing, which could be event planning in general or team building, because my actual interest is in implementation and culture.
What Community Impact Truly Means
Speaker 4As a policy scholar, which is how I was trained, I've always had an interest in bridging research and practice, which for me in policy, is actually talking about implementation. What happens when a great idea reaches humans? What has to happen between those humans to get that idea off the ground? And that's often cultural, it's often relational, it's often the nitty gritty who's going to send the email, you know? Can we think creatively about the things that need to get done that actually help people feel like they've been hosted when they arrive at an event?
Speaker 4When I'm doing a dinner at my house, I love to go to dinner parties. I want people to arrive like someone has thought about them coming, and I find that sometimes I don't see that in community. So I'm interested in community relationships. My business is called Love, joy, liberation Community Relations Firm, so whatever comes into that, is that a meeting? Is that a planning? Is it a culture workshop? Is it talking about goal setting? Ultimately, I'm thinking about what it takes to work better together and what it takes to build powerful community relationships that are actually built in those people knowing each other and not doing quote unquote work with one another.
Speaker 4I'm really interested in that Also. We are creative people and some of the most brilliant people I know only talk about work, but if you let them outside, they're painters. They're not letting any of this creativity flow into their workspace. I've experienced this, Like how do you integrate your skill sets in your life to say, you know how to bring people together in your home, which is personal. You call them, you text them, you know what snacks they have, but now in your job you do community work and you don't know how to bring people together.
Speaker 2You don't know how to Right, you don't know how to interact with them.
Speaker 4All of a sudden they're completely separate from. I am a robot, I felt it. I'm like what is happening. But sometimes we get into these professional spheres and we have to be honest with how we're feeling differently in them. And what would help feel differently, you know, I guess in one way I'm saying what would help me feel differently is if my meetings were organized when I show up and if I actually knew these people. Yeah, these are my two big hypothesis at the time, like you know, and when I look at movement work, the history of movement work, these groups knew each other. Yep, they weren't. The tool of the organization came after the relationship, right, and we're trying to use the tool as a, as a supplement, not a supplement to supplant, really to replace a community relationships, the fact they were in church together or friends or neighbors. They knew each other. Now we're going like, how can we do community engagement? I was never on the list because they already were. They were already in the community.
Speaker 2Yeah, what do you mean? How do we do it? We're doing it now. Yeah, it is this.
Speaker 4They said let's get together and build a school, yeah. So it's like how can we say, oh, maybe we're putting too much in these institutions? We've gotten a little deluded if we think that, like the nonprofits or the collaborative, alone can do it. That was never the ask, it was a tool. So if you don't do both, you don't know what works.
Speaker 2Or misunderstanding that the collaborative is the group of people, not necessarily the group of institutions. Yes, yeah, it's actually the collaborative, the collective.
Speaker 4Who can represent a whole?
Speaker 2institution. Yeah, that's not even real and you don't want to.
Speaker 4And also, like you, need to have a system for working together, some sort of goal, and we have to appreciate what it means to do that. I mean, I think we just need to appreciate people's time. I want to honor people's time. I want to honor them giving and sharing their lives with one another and talking about things that are hard or great or easy, and we can't do that without, you know, being willing to do the nitty gritty logistics of making sure people are OK, which is often a grocery list Right.
Speaker 2So you're removing barriers for people to be in community with each other. So that looks like having the meeting ready to go when they come in, so we can actually get to the real things.
Speaker 4I mean, what would it mean for a community to say we're going to do this, but I think we're missing some things? Let's work together and see what happens after that.
Speaker 2Nakonda, tell us about your community work, your consulting work.
Speaker 3You know you can ask me that question on any given day and you may get a different answer depending on how I feel, because I personally am vehemently opposed to boxing in people as human beings into certain things. I think that's part of the problems that are deep rooted, including race. We keep putting people in boxes and at some point we have to stop and change the rubric Name of my consulting business. When I talk about consulting, I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I know what I know and I'm not afraid to say what I don't know. And what I know is that I grew up in a community that was heavily rooted in civil rights activism work, and I didn't know it. I was led by a civil rights activist who marched with Dr King, and I didn't know it until she passed. That was a mentor that taught me on an everyday level. I was in the presence of Reverend Johnny Hayes at Hillcrest Marching Band. I had no clue what he was or who he was until I was in my 30s and 40s, so I was constantly in the presence of people that were doing community work. So community work to me was just living, and so I did end up working in an organization that was focused on civil rights activism for gay and transgender, hiv positive, all of the marginalized communities, and I didn't know why I love being there. I didn't know the term social justice at that time. It was just this is what I love to do, these are my people, these are my people, and so when I go into an organization, I go into it with a sense of OK, how can my people fit into the organization? Like, is this organization equipped to welcome the people that I'm used to serving? And so, in my mind, I always do a Lean Six Sigma process walk. If I call you, if you don't have a option for Spanish or Russian or, you know, for other languages, you already have a barrier. If I go to your front desk person and they don't give me eye contact, you have a barrier. Let's see how do we change the culture to where everyone that comes in touch with this organization is going to be welcome.
Speaker 3But I'm very selective when I do decide to work with the organization. They definitely have to be in alignment with my values and they have to be open, to be receptive to other opinions and perspectives, and so I'm looking for the values alignment before I go anywhere. You can keep your money because the money will come OK. For me, my consultant work means it's something that I have to be in alignment with. I do a number of things. I can help with programming. I can help with outcomes. I had to report to the federal government at least three times a year. I know how these outcomes work. I know what they're looking for. I know what these federal grants and state grants are looking for. Do I choose to do that all the time? No, but I may if you're in alignment and I feel good in your involvement and I feel like we have a reciprocal relationship.
Speaker 3But for me, my joy comes from leadership development. I absolutely love working with people that don't know their power yet. I absolutely love it when I broke down the barriers, working in the government, the county system and in the medical nonprofit sector for over 20 years. I love breaking down that barrier so that person that had no experience can come through the door and I will teach you what you need to know. As long as you can retain information. Let's come up with a system so we're picking the right people and giving the right people opportunities. And if you don't know your value, guess what? I see it and my job is to help you see it, and that I love.
Speaker 2Y'all should see her eyes right now.
Speaker 3I love they're sparkling, they're wide.
Speaker 1I'm here for it, yes, I see the love.
The Journey toward Alignment
Speaker 2Yes, so OK, one thing that maybe our audience has picked up on I know I certainly have is this vein that I think both of you have of having stepped back from other types of work that maybe weren't in alignment with what you were looking to do in the community, maybe not in alignment with how you saw yourself interacting and being in community. What did your journey to get to where you are now doing this work? That, to me, sounds very freeing and it sounds like something that maybe can be kind of scary for folks to think about, like stepping out on your own, having that abundance mindset that says like the money will come if we're in alignment, which is so incredibly powerful and freeing to say how did you get to that place? For folks who are maybe thinking the same thing, that maybe they're in a place where they're not in alignment and they're like how do I get there? Oh, I'll start with that.
Speaker 3Yeah, all the time. I'm always listening to something and I don't know where I listened and heard it, but they said I'm paraphrasing you'll never change something unless you get angry. When you get angry with something, when you feel the, it will force you to change. And whatever you choose not to change, you tolerate. It took for me to get angry at walking into spaces with hopes that I would be seen for what I am and be treated how I treat people, doing that a number of times and realizing often that you're going to have the same outcome, especially as a Black woman in a predominantly white city.
Speaker 3So it took for me to get angry. And it took for me to say wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Recalibrate, before you start believing what they say, remember who you are and remember your power, because that's the trick of the system. And so I had to really get in realignment with my spirit and what I know I am and whose I am. And what I know is who I am and what I know is where my center and what my force tells me will happen if I do certain things. And I have to be willing to take the risk in spite of fear, in spite of anything else, because I've been doing all the other things, like when you've done something about a process of elimination. If you're actually learning Right, you will choose to do something different.
Speaker 3And so it's like OK, it gets to the point where I've done X, y, z and that didn't work. It didn't fulfill me or it left me feeling like I was inadequate, that what I was bringing wasn't enough because it didn't conform into this thing. But I am all things. I am these things. I can't change what. I am, so quit trying to fit in a box. I am these things. I can't change what. I am, so quit trying to fit in the box. I wish I would have had these conversations with someone that I respected when I was 10, 11 years old, because it took maybe I started 10 years ago and it took a long time for me to build up, to really believe and know what I knew and to claim it, and so we have to start with our youth now.
Speaker 4I really resonate with that. I think it's interesting you said anger, because my first reaction was heartbreak, which I think sadness and grief is the other side of anger. A lot of things had to break my heart. You know, I went the education route. I went all sorts of routes. I've believed in a lot of things and really followed my values places Arriving in jobs that you're saying and you're trying. Well, maybe it's this way. Well, maybe it's that way and you're growing as a leader. Well, maybe I need to change it. I'm doing my own work and I'm evolving along a path. I'm willing to do anything as long as I'm evolving along a path.
Speaker 4I think once it starts getting into impacting your self-concept is another thing. What I hear and what Nakonda is saying that I think fills parallels. At some point I had to be like do I believe all of these things I've read and said for myself? If I believe anyone should have joy and access to it, if I believe anyone has gifts, if I believe acting in alignment matters, then I have to live that out in my own life. You know what I had to do when I was coming home and talking to my friends who all work in this work, who are educators and community organizers, and we are all first generation students. Some of us are Black, multiracial, whatever, and we're having the same experiences across the country. What if, to your point of community? I just worked with my own community. What if I started with the people closest to me that I knew were values aligned? What if I poured into that? And that is an extension of what I believe Grab the people closest to you and get to work.
Speaker 4But I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I thought that was very scary. I didn't want to be out on my own. I feel like I've been out on my own my whole life. I think that there's a safety that comes from being in other organizations, but those organizations are starting not to feel safe anymore either. You might as well be resourced, and if you are getting depleted and not feeling like yourself, then you can't even make a plan or make work from your best place. And so I want more for Black people, so I want more for myself, and I don't think we did all this work to die.
Speaker 4I read a book All the Black Girls Are Activists. That was life changing. Sort of pushes up on this idea that the most radical thing that Black women can do is rest no, we've never done in this country is rest For most people in their family. If you're a femme, you know you might be the first person in your family who doesn't have a child yet, who has actually lived on their own, who has had some level of independence. This has never happened in your bloodline before. I bet the ancestors rejoice to see me take a nap. I'm over here worried I'm not doing a nap. I bet they're like thank God.
Speaker 2They're like this silly girl, Don't you dare stand up. We keep sending you blessings and you're like I gotta do more.
Speaker 4They're like you are the first one to you know peace. Yeah, I want more, I want more for the black woman.
Speaker 3I know, I know I don't want us dying anymore. I'm tired of that stat. If I'm tired of that stat, then I can't die, not like that. Maybe jumping off a boat on vacation Fine, how is that revolutionary? A black woman dying from work? How is that new In the South? I won't do it. Ethic that has traditionally been communicated, whether subliminally or literally, to us as Black women in society in general, not just as Black people but just society, america, capitalism work, work, work, work, work.
Speaker 3Something I was listening to said that employment was the most detrimental thing that ever happened to the human psyche, because employment took away our ability to imagine and to find ourselves Earlier. This year, a good friend died and their family made it very clear at the funeral that they felt that a lot of organizations get ahead on the backs of Black women. In my mind something clicked. I had already been on this journey, right. But then another light bulb went off and it was like hmm, you need to do something even more radical.
Speaker 3All those extra boards, all those extra things you're doing, all those things to stay on your plate, to feel like you are doing something, why do you feel like you have to do those? Not? Why do you feel like you have to do them back for your own intents and personal purposes, that it would be detrimental or it would harm someone else? Like, why do you feel like this conversation in your mind, in your body, you can step back? You have the right to step back. You've earned the right to step back. And even if you step back, that doesn't mean that work isn't being done. It's just done in a different way.
Speaker 4I think so too, and I think it's the ego. When I graduated, on my cap it said if not you, then who? If not now, then when they really got you with that right.
Speaker 1I get it.
Speaker 4But it puts an undue pressure to say that like, if I don't go to this meeting, if I miss this thing, then everything will cease and it's like no, you're in a community, I thing will cease and it's like no, you're in a community. I think one of the greatest gifts of like stepping back is just watching how the world keeps turning, how the sun keeps shining, the organizations keep going, and it isn't to say that we're not important, but it is to say like things will still happen and you will find other ways to contribute. But, like you have to deal with your identity and maybe you're over identifying with your job. I think the challenge for some of us doing this is to not let work become our identity, because that is capitalistic to your point. And so then are you pursuing your humanity?
Speaker 4And then, in doing that, the universe, I believe, will creatively respond to what you should be doing, and that means you might need to leave roles and jobs behind. But you have to be willing to change and I think you have to be willing to feel the discomfort and the heartbreak, the anger. Whatever activating emotion comes up. You have to be willing to respond to it. I want to be a good steward of my blessings and my talents and my gifts. That's the deal I make. So when I get told to move, I move, because who are you to say that in this job, on that board, that's your best work? How do you know that?
Speaker 2And so, with that, though, really, what does it look like to have a network of people who are thinking and moving in the same way that you two are, who are working towards like this collective liberation of themselves right, like seeking to liberate themselves that then ripples with any luck, ripples throughout a community that then is able to liberate itself? What does that network look like? What could that?
Speaker 4impact be? First of all, can I just say that that is the point of what we're supposed to be getting at. Because just in listening to us in this state, can't you imagine that if more people had this, it would just change the standard of work and expectations? If we all just aligned on the plane that we don't want to overwork, that things take time, that we have to be able to time to pursue our passions, we walk away from things that don't serve us and everyone acted and trusted that it worked, that is the abundance mindset. Then maybe we wouldn't have infighting, we wouldn't be competitive, we wouldn't think ideas are finite.
Speaker 4I think that it would change the vibration of the city and our world if more people stepped into living their values, living in alignment with what they believe and the knowledge that they have. It would look like people actually being in relationship with one another and having time to maintain their relationships. I think this is actually what I'm trying to get at here. I want to never be too busy for the human in front of me. If we lived that quality of life, I think that would be really important.
Speaker 2I'm going to chew on that. I never want to be too busy for the human in front of me.
Speaker 3What it looks like for me. That's how I live. That's just how I live. We don't have to get along and hang with everybody, we just don't. We have this misconception that we all have to be on the same accord and sometimes I feel like when we start to try to define other people's lanes in our own, we box ourselves and other people in. But if we're listening to our own vibration say, for instance, I meet you on the street and you just might be dancing and I might just walk up and start dancing with you and we just vibe, and then we walk away with a high five and we like, I'm like you, my bestie, and that's it. When you vibe like that and you rock like that, you are always in alignment and in a environment that is cultivating.
Speaker 3It's when we try to force things that are unnatural that we reach these contention points that are hard to move. Because even if you are in vibration with somebody and something comes up, if y'all are on the same vibration, you can easily piece through it. You can figure it out, because the vibration is still similar and the love and the feeling is there. But when we are trying to force relationships and saying, oh, because you do this and I do this. We have to work together. Well, if y'all don't vibe, y'all just don't vibe.
Speaker 3Exactly and if we are walking in an abundance mindset. It's okay if you do your thing and you do your thing and y'all be cordial and respect each other. There's nothing wrong with that. If you respect people and treat them the way you want to be treated and cultivate the vibrations of the people that are in your circle, things naturally just happen in the most beautiful, unimaginable ways.
Speaker 4We have to move from what we're doing to how we do it. We need to be more allegiant to the spirit from which our actions flow than just doing stuff.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know when, when I'm in different spaces and people are talking about how they're doing all this work because they really want to see, you know, their communities improve. They want to get there right, wherever there is right, whatever justice looks like, however we're defining it, and I do think that's the big thing that's getting lost. We keep talking about how we've lost the village. We don't have our village anymore to protect us, like we don't have those relationships, but then we move in ways that is like deeply destructive to the village Right, like, baby, you're out here with a sledgehammer tearing down the village, burning every brick. I think it's partially because of that perspective that, ok, we all have to get along, or we all have to be moving in the same way, or else, or else what I don't know, but or else like if we're not, then we'll never get there.
Speaker 2It'll be done in a way that I personally couldn't imagine, and therefore it can't be good, but you know what, tara, as you're saying this, though, but like liberated people, don't think like that, that's right, that's not it, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2Right, like that's the thing. If we were focusing more on what you are talking about, you're focusing on yourself, your self-liberation, and getting to a place where you find truly what does your alignment look like and what does it look like to move in that Then you aren't worried about that, right? Then you aren't the one who's burning down your own village.
Speaker 3Yes, absolutely For me as an only child, that tracks, by the way.
Speaker 4Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 2I had no idea you were an only child.
The Journey to Alignment and Self-Liberation
Speaker 3Me either but that makes sense I am, I am and so like for me, it allowed me to have a very different perspective. Like I don't really understand being competitive with someone because I never had to compete, and so when I was growing up and people would come at me like competing, I'm like what are you doing? I don't even understand it. So it equipped me with something different. We are all products of our environment to some extent and it has equipped us with things and we have to take time to pause and reflect to see what are the things that we experience that we can take, that have cultivated us to make us better, and what are the things that we have experienced that maybe are things that we learn from, that can actually catapult us to the next level. Like we've learned something from it. Either it's going to catapult us or it's something that we can learn, that we need to adapt to so we can change, so we don't repeat it in the future.
Speaker 3And I realize there is a level of privilege that comes with having the time to do that. You're just trying to stay alive. You don't have the time to take a pause and reflect. Sometimes and I've had to say that to a number of people they're like why I don't understand why they're not fighting for the community. I don't understand why they're not doing whatever. I'm like they're just trying to live Right, exactly, exactly, trying to pay the bills and get from point A to point B. I've been there, I've done that. I didn't have time to think about reflecting.
Speaker 4What is that?
Speaker 3Who has time for that. When we talk about like the different people and being in relationships, we have to respect that people are on their individual journeys. They may have not had time to reflect where we may have, and that's OK too. I can love you just the same and I can support you just the same, but don't come over here with your sledgehammer. You might not want to mess with us.
Speaker 4I wouldn't swing at this one. The force field is on.
Speaker 2So with that, I you know honestly, I think we've done this a little bit. I feel like when you guys have been describing this, I can see it, but I want to ask y'all what is your dream for the community? What's your dream for your community?
Speaker 3This is a hard one because I don't have false expectations. So I read this book called the Courage to be Disliked and it talked about how to really be liberated and happy. It was a conversation between an older person, who was like a psychologist, and a younger person about a theory of whether people can change. One of the things that was like a focal point was that most people walk through life trying to avoid being disliked, and it is the cause of most of the problems and interpersonal relationships. We all want to be liked. We don't want to ruffle feathers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so one of the challenges was what if you walk through life without expectations? What if you were just you and you defined you and walked in your power and your strength, with your thoughts and your feelings, and you projected everything that you felt and who you were, without fear of being liked and without an expectation of other people. Because that's where disappointment often happens and problems happen, because we expect something that is unrealistic, because the only real thing is what's now? The power of now, right, by Eckhart Tolle.
Speaker 3I don't have a lot of expectations for people. I rock on my vibe and I do that unapologetically. No, let me take that word back, because I don't even like that word unapologetic, because I do apologize. I recognize that I can have flaws, so I don't like to use that word loosely, but I walk in my power freely and I also move in a way that I try to be kind in all forms of life.
Speaker 3As a native that has lived here during a time where it was the happiest moments in my life and I actually went to the school right across the street, which was an all black school up until fourth grade, and had to move to another side of town, I would love for our community to remember what it was and as a native I plan to do my part to help the people in my spheres of influence to remember that. When I say what it was, we had deep community roots. I didn't know there was a world outside of Hillcrest because it was self-sustaining. We had a candy bus. You can go to the candy bus and get everything you got at Ingalls.
Speaker 1Gene the Candyman.
Speaker 3You had communal relationships with every other public housing development. People knew each other. Right now, I see the shift from back then, when it was maybe 33 percent people of color, then it was 13 percent with Dwight Mullen's last research, and then there was a projection that it was going to be 8 percent, and then that was before the hurricane. And then when the hurricane comes, traditionally in any environment the population loses 33 percent of its population. So what does that mean? And so part of what Change the Rubric is doing right now is making sure that our melanated people are visible. Yes, we are here.
Speaker 3I am of the, of the opposition against. You know people saying when I say I'm from Asheville and I can, they can be from California, atlanta, whatever. They're like Asheville, there's black people in Asheville. Yes, we do exist. It's not like Santa Claus. We are there. And so, from my perspective, I want my community to know one where we were previously Be reminded of the tight knit community that we had, where Sam Cook and Gladys Knight and all of them were coming up on the block, hanging out on the block. We had community where you walk downtown and there were black people everywhere. It just wasn't a sea of white. I want them to remember that and I would like that to change, if anything and if we have to bring it here collectively, I'm just going to use my connections to try to bring that back so that we're visible and running things.
Speaker 2Ok, I forgot that part I forgot that part.
Speaker 4Look, say it louder.
Speaker 2Visible and in charge. Make no mistake.
Speaker 3I'm not going to say in charge, but visible and with authority. Ok, because we used to have things. We don't have that stuff anymore. We used to have things. We don't have that stuff anymore.
Speaker 4So, visible and with authority and making a forward movement to being more present, yeah, the thing about the demographics is so interesting because someone I think I was talking to a white person before and they, they put this together for me in a way I hadn't thought about, which was, like, you know, we have had all these folks come visit Asheville from different places and join and live here, and then maybe they'll be, you know, they're from Chicago or New York, and I'll meet some of them and they'll say like, yeah, I really liked it, I like what was going on, and I came here and then I realized there was no diversity, right, like it's something that some people notice after, and I was talking to someone about it, a white person about it and they were, like isn't that interesting that you were drawn to this place? You really liked it, you bought a home, you went around and it took you a bit to not notice it immediately when, like as a black person or some people notice it instantly.
Speaker 4Oh yeah, and that would be a clear decision making indicator if they live somewhere. Is would be if they ran into anyone that was different than them. Yep, I think that speaks a lot about privilege. I hadn't thought about it like that, but it's like, yes, you packed up a house and you moved somewhere and you visited multiple times over years and you've loved Asheville over time. And if I listen to what you're saying, you're saying you've never noticed a lack of diversity. You've never noticed it.
Speaker 1You're like well, I mean you loved it.
Speaker 4You just felt so you didn't know why, but you just loved it here, just love to hear it. I've never been in a place like it, say it, say it, say it. I was like what are we saying? You know, it's like you're at 6 pm at a cocktail hour, but what are we saying? Right, what are we saying? And it's not to be self-conscious, but it is to be curious. And if you love the place, I love it too. I live here and I I didn't know a place like Asheville could exist.
Speaker 4I didn't know that. I mean, I've been in segregation of all sorts but like, this is an overwhelmingly white place that lacks diversity in a particular way, and I think we should never get self-conscious about what that means for things we think are normal and people consistently here are constantly going. Like it just doesn't work that way or that's not how it goes. But it's like actually, in places that do not have a monopoly and domination, with one race, with a dwindling black, you know all these things there's something particular that has happened here. That's how I always say it.
Speaker 4There's, there is a way that whiteness and urban renewal has worked across the country. And then there's something specific that has happened here that has left this place because of tourism and its own natural beauty and the courts in the ground and all the reasons why people would come here, which are valid. Fine, I'm not asking you to move, but you do need to realize you know what this means and how that impacts, and I do think that there's a world for black and brown people to come here and live. But then when we do so, then that's why this community work and our relationships is so important, because again, you can attract people who like the vibe of the place, but then if it takes you two years to be nice to them excuse me, speaking from personal experience- I mean, okay, I didn't mean to go there and it takes you three years to speak to me.
Speaker 4I've never been in a place where people wouldn't speak to you. Oh yeah, anyway, this is not the point of the episode it's not, but I will say that, like we will, call in something we want and mistreat it yes, and, and you can't do that.
Speaker 2You got to ready the space you have to receive what you keep saying you want.
Speaker 4Yes, it's true, set the table we want set the table, black people, black kids to know they have voices. And then you don't like young black leaders who do you think these kids you serve become Integrate your ideology? It's like you can't. You can't have both, you know. So yeah, I agree. I agree with Nikonda.
Speaker 3I just want to say, as a native, was maybe seven years ago I went to. They used to have the melanin meetup. I went to it. It was at Haywood Lounge. They serve great wings if you ever need some great wings, but I was sitting there with some people. I didn't know any of these people. They weren't from Asheville but it was melanated people. So I'm meeting all these new people and that was the first time that I was ever informed that people from other cities, towns, countries, melanated people that came here didn't feel welcome and I'm like what? That's a thing? Yeah, I don't, I can't find people, I don't. And then people are rude and I'm like I'm so sorry that has been your experience. But let me just tell you I am so happy to see anybody with some melanin anytime in Asheville Because I do this thing and I didn't realize I do it until I was with my daughter one day in the grocery store out on Smoky Park at Ingalls Ingalls is a huge grocery store right and we came out of the store and I said one out loud and she's like one what I said.
Speaker 3There was only one person of color in the whole store. She's like really, you were counting. I was like, yeah, I was, and I didn't realize that I do that everywhere I go, because when you see other people that look like you, there's a sense of safety with it, it's a sense of belonging, and I didn't realize that I was doing that until that very day. Since then I've said it to a number of people and they have the same experience. Anyway, I'm getting off topic.
Speaker 3What you're saying, I hear you. We do have to make it welcoming. That's why it's important that we do our individual work. Guess what? If you are confident in yourself and you have an abundance mindset, you know whatever is for you is for you and whatever is for whoever is for them, and you can see them as you see yourself. If you see the goodness and the God and the whatever you see in you, you're going to see it in the other person and you will treat them as such. And if you don't, then you won't. So it starts with that self-working. That's why I love leadership. Development Starts with that self-working.
Speaker 4That's why I love leadership development, and that's a perfect segue into my hopes and dreams. I want love, joy and liberation for everyone. Love I always take bell hooks as the willingness to extend oneself for your own or another spiritual growth. I think it's a loving act to grow and I think it's a loving act to find a human, imperfect as they are, and love them however they are, without trying to change or amend them, and just let love do the thing. I want joy. I want playfulness and laughter. I want us to be able to feel safe in our happiness. I don't want us to think that that is a betrayal to our politics. I want to see folks having fun, especially folks in marginalized communities. I think that that is our superpower. I know it is our superpower to be able to have joy. And I want us to be liberated.
Speaker 4And so much of this conversation, like I found, collective liberation is tied up in personal liberation and you have to be willing to be free, which means you have to be willing to tolerate pain. I think people can hear this conversation. I've noticed, you know, as I've come, you know, evolved is that people hear the end result and presume the whole path has been easy there. You know they hear this and it's like, oh, you just must think that's so simple. It's like, actually, no, I know what, how hard it is what I'm asking you to do and I know exactly why you wouldn't do it, but I'm saying I'll do my part and love you. I'm doing my part and saying what I've seen burn people out along the way is that they didn't have joy.
Speaker 4And what I'm saying is that I think that if you have love and joy, it will lead you to your own liberation. And I'm not responsible for saying what that is. I don't know. I don't know it for myself any more than I know it for you, but I know that you deserve love. I know that a lot of times, when we're trying to get people to do justice work, you're asking folks to treat others in ways they've never been treated. You're asking them to give patients they've never had, to provide peace. They don't know. It's not my responsibility to give that to everyone, but I can hold that then and say, like, how can I show up in the world? So I know that there's more of it? So, yeah, so love, joy, liberation and literacy, I think.
Speaker 4I think because critical thinking is important. It's because as a child I was a reader and they took me. It's so corny, but of course it took me worlds away from where I was and I couldn't have understood the world without reading. And so I think when we talk about literacy, people are like, feel like we're talking about standards and I you know I do because I'm a policy person talking about standards, but what I'm talking about is a sense of self-concept. I'm talking about text to self. I'm talking about the ability to ingest someone else's ideas without needing to respond. Reading is a practice in listening and thought, creation and writing and the ability to articulate ourselves. And if you can't express yourself creation and writing and the ability to articulate ourselves and if you can't express yourself, how frustrating. How frustrating. There is a spiritual loss and the lack of ability to access text, which also could just be listening to an audio book. I was a snob, I will say for a while there Anyone who's?
Speaker 4done me for a while. I'm like that was a flip flop because beliefs change.
Speaker 4Anyone who's done me for a while be like that was a flip flop, because beliefs change. I don't care. Listen to the book on a walk, read the book, I don't care, but just like, have an appreciation for education and your own, and learning and thoughts and ideas. And that is tied to liberation for me. So I think the liberation is going to be hard. It's like why don't you start by reading things, poetry or looking at art and asking yourself interesting questions?
Speaker 4I think that those can help people see liberation not just as like overcoming the traumas, which is only a piece of it. You know, I don't want more for yourself than just overcoming. Oh, my God, I hope you dreamed a life. You know, like I always say, like I'm lucky that teenage me and kid me made some deals with myself for the decisions I was making and what I was dealing with, and I was like all right, so we're going to do this, so that when we finally make it, we're going to do da, da, da, da, da, and every once in a while I have something I have not made good on.
Speaker 1Every time I get mad about cleaning my house.
Speaker 4They're like you're not even supposed to be cleaning your house. You said that we were going to get it. I made some deals and you know you. I hope you have a past self. You made deals with. Even now, make deals with yourself. What are you making this decision for? And? And that person rears up oh, we did not go through all of this. We did not tolerate those things back then. For you to arrive here with more agency, more power, and for you to squander your seat and say nothing, for you to be afraid, for you to be unhappy man teenage me did not do all this for me to be unhappy.
Speaker 3She won't stand it one thing I just want to name as a parallel and hearing you talk, I so agree with you. I love that. I love that you said that you made agreements with yourself. That is a pattern of people that reach liberation. Because I do the same as well, and it may look different. I have a that I, every day, I'm writing stuff that is like this is just something I got to do, I'm going to do, I'm going to do and I check it off, and I've been doing that for a number of years what I've learned and, looking back at some of those books, every single thing that I wrote manifested yes, and so we want to go, even if we don't know where we want to go, just to be moving forward and doing that lifelong learning and evolution.
Speaker 4Yes, you have to be your own witness to your life. You're paying attention to yourself. You know I write every time. Sometimes people will say something to me and it will spark, and so for years I've kept like little post-it notes. It kind of looks crazy if you come into my house and you see it, but I chronicle them annually so you can see, like the thing that someone told me in passing when I was 22, that changed everything for me and I put it on a post-it and I, you know, chronicle my life in that way and that means anything at any moment. Going back to impact oh, I needed that, I needed to see it that way, I needed that to be free. And then they're kind of around my room and I'm meditating on them. They're going in there subconsciously, they're becoming what my new beliefs are, and so I think that we have to have more practice of actively changing our beliefs.
Speaker 4I remember when I first was like transitioning out of my past role in life, I was like I want to call in ease, but then it's like, oh, you have to get used to what ease feels like. Do you have enough space for ease? It looks like you're chilling as someone is having a hard time. Oh, can your nervous system handle that? Are you going to go? Try to leave your seat of ease to save them. You've called in rest and you're resting. Asked and answered Are you going to unseat your rest? How can we, you know, stay in alignment with what we're asking of ourselves? And in right relationship is also a part of this work as well. English is so limiting. It's not work, it's just a relationship with yourself, like do you like yourself? Do you rock with you? I'll do anything for my baby. I love her.
Speaker 2She's oh my God, I know, Baby a bath. I say all the time like, no, truly like, I will pick me first. I don't know how to explain that without people kind of internalizing that as like, oh so selfish. At the very least, choose you. At the very least, choose you.
Speaker 3Yes, absolutely, and I don't want to mispronounce her name Iyana, is it Iyanla Van Lance or something like that Black lady with short hair? She's powerful, motivational lady and she said that's not selfish, she's being self-full. She said you can't give what you don't have, and if you're given to the extent where it is taken away from you and you're given to someone else, like are you going to come out of your rest to help save someone else, you're making them a thief and they don't even know it, because they're taking something.
Speaker 3You are intentionally making them a thief and they don't know it, because they don't know that they're taking what you need. And so you have to be self-full. You can only give from your overflow of your cup. So let's be self-full, ladies.
Speaker 4Let's be self-full. Let's name the episode From the Overflow, reporting life from the overflow.
Speaker 2Y'all, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you and I think that's such a great place to end. How we make impact in our community is from our overflow. Yes, Doing that first step to take care and root for yourself, rock for yourself, get in alignment with yourself and the rest falls into place. I love it Y'all, it's been such a pleasure.
Speaker 4Thank you so much.
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